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Brochure for Richard Taylor's Ramraiders arrived in the post
Stormbird
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March 21, 2007 - 3:08 pm
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Well now i’m TOTALLY screwed πŸ˜• , Three artists and three different Luftwaffe prints.
Trudgian – Operation Mercury
Taylor senior – Fury of Assault
Taylor Jnr – Ramraiders
All reasonably close together. I have put my order in for all 3 along with John Shaws – Iwo Jima (artist proof), on top of this im getting them all framed. Plus i’m getting some half dozen war movie posters (my other passion) framed at the same time. It seems that this month is going to prove to be quite heavy on the hip pocket. AND to top it all off Avalon Airshow is on this weekend (biggest airshow on this side of the globe), Usually i spend up big here on other prints or other bits and pieces.

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Blacksheep
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March 21, 2007 - 3:16 pm
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Well now i’m TOTALLY screwed πŸ˜• , Three artists and three different Luftwaffe prints.
Trudgian – Operation Mercury
Taylor senior – Fury of Assault
Taylor Jnr – Ramraiders
All reasonably close together. I have put my order in for all 3 along with John Shaws – Iwo Jima (artist proof), on top of this im getting them all framed. Plus i’m getting some half dozen war movie posters (my other passion) framed at the same time. It seems that this month is going to prove to be quite heavy on the hip pocket. AND to top it all off Avalon Airshow is on this weekend (biggest airshow on this side of the globe), Usually i spend up big here on other prints or other bits and pieces.

:hys

Time to start selling the kids!

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Skyraider3D
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March 21, 2007 - 9:45 pm
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I can’t say if I like the image or not, as that’s a rather poor reproduction of it. Are there any better images of this painting online? This one suggests this Fw 190 wears a rather peculiar black and bright green camouflage on the fuselage. I am sure it’s the digital reproduction, rather than the original painting causing this effect.

[edit]
O dear… I found another reproduction and it is even worse when it comes to the green colour… very lurid:

At this point in time (June 1944) the green colour would most likely still have been RLM 74 dark grey. This was officially replaced by RLM 83 dark green from August onwards. I also believe that at this point in time droptanks would indeed be dropped before an attack. It wasn’t until a few months later that things became seriously desperate and G?ΒΆring ordered the tanks to be preserved.

Whatever the case, I much prefer John Wallin‘s version of this bird 8)

[/edit][/i]

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fuzzy
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March 21, 2007 - 11:12 pm
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Wade’s post says Goring’s “keep the tanks” order was issued in October 1943. This incident is June 1944, so it is after the order, and plausible they were retained.

Bottom line on Luftwaffe drop tanks later in the war is that it could go either way. There was an order from the top of the Luftwaffe to keep them. The Germans were a disciplined lot, so I’m sure that order was observed in many cases. On the other hand, fighter pilots tend to be an independent lot, so I’m sure it was ignored in many cases. Unless a photo was taken during the encounter and survives today (with proper documentation), I’d say it’s up to the artist to interpret as he sees fit.

fuzzy

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Skyraider3D
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March 21, 2007 - 11:20 pm
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Sure the year is 1943, not 1944? πŸ˜•
I do know he was opposed to dropping the fuel, but not the actual preservation of the tank itself until later in the war.

On the other hand, even if it was 1943 the escort fighter situation wasn’t as bad as in 1944 and it made more sense then than later.

Unless a photo was taken during the encounter and survives today (with proper documentation), I’d say it’s up to the artist to interpret as he sees fit.

Sounds like it indeed.

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Wade Meyers
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March 21, 2007 - 11:35 pm
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I asked this very question a while back of Jerry Crandall, noted Luftwaffe expert, and turns out RT and RT the Younger are right:

Hi Wade;

Look forward to seeing your painting. Yes, it is perfectly okay to have the drop tanks still in place when returning from a mission. Here’s why . . .

I should clarify, from my post on page one of this thread (partly reproduced above), that Jerry was answering a question of mine concerning pictures of 190s showing drop tanks being still in place upon return from combat, where a victory was known to be scored.

That was the context of Jerry’s response to me. Also, Jerry mentions he’s seen Luftwaffe combat film, which captures fellow German planes attacking US bomber streams, and as he says, it’s evident that tanks are in place. As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.

I agree with Fuzzy’s assessment just above. You can go either way from late 1943 onwards and you’re on safe ground.

I’m sorry for any misunderstanding. My fault, not Jerry’s.

Wade

Wade Meyers Studios

http://wademeyersstudios.com

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Wade Meyers
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March 21, 2007 - 11:42 pm
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Sure the year is 1943, not 1944?

Ronnie, I just checked … the reference to Luftwaffe “drop tanks” and the intercepted ULTRA message in Murray’s book is indeed 1943, not 1944.

Wade

Wade Meyers Studios

http://wademeyersstudios.com

kiwi123
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March 22, 2007 - 5:55 am
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Surely mr. Taylors interpretation is much safer for the people living below. lol

Sorry, but I always keep wondering how many people have died from being hit by a droptank. It surely can’t be a pleasant experience to have one hit your roof, especially full of fuel.

As for the artwork, I like what he did. However, I agree that having the droptanks looks strange, accurate or not.

Charles McHugh
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March 22, 2007 - 6:40 am
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Sorry, but I always keep wondering how many people have died from being hit by a droptank. It surely can’t be a pleasant experience to have one hit your roof, especially full of fuel.

A fair observation, but if the combat was over the low counties (Netherlands / Belguim) as it was the ‘enemy’ below, I suspect that the fighter pilots would not spare a second of thouht.

You must also accept that europe was largely rural then with towns less than half the size they are nowadays, so statistically they were likely to land on open countryside.

Self preservation is a real good way to become totally selfish. ie Rules of engagement go out of the window as the first bullet whistles by your ear.

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Skyraider3D
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March 22, 2007 - 7:49 am
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Forget about droptanks, how about the billions of rounds of ammo raining down from aerial combat?! 😯 It’s bound to have killed folks in areas like London and Berlin.

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March 22, 2007 - 10:13 am
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Surprisingly, a falling rifle calibre bullet would probably not kill you, even if it it hit you on the head. Just like the old myth about a coin being dropped off the top of the empire state building being able of killing someone: it almost certainly wouldn’t. A heavy calibre bullet, say 0.5″ might do some damage, and as for a drop tank or a cannon shell….!

Ok enough of that, my 2p is that I really like Richards latest, from what I can tell from these images on my dodgy monitor πŸ™‚

Paul

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kzollitsch
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March 22, 2007 - 12:46 pm
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I think sometimes we can get too weighed down with historical details. I believe that artists do have a responsibility to portray aircraft and events in their historic contexts, especially when portraying specific incidents. But I’m not going to be too distraught if minor details are incorrect, such as the green is a little off or the sky conditions are different. As long as I don’t see a Hellcat fighting off Fw190’s above North Africa, I’m pretty happy.

I understand that some collectors are enthralled with the history and demand this accuracy, but I’m in it for all those pretty pictures. wink An artist can create the most historically accurate piece, but if it does not have good composition, lighting, etc.. I’m not going to buy it. Afterall, this is art first and foremost.

Ken

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Skyraider3D
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March 22, 2007 - 12:52 pm
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As long as I don’t see a Hellcat fighting off Fw190’s above North Africa, I’m pretty happy.

That wouldn’t be too far off though. Wildcats operated over North Africa and Hellcats fought Fw 190s over the south of France.

My aviation art @ http://www.skyraider3d.com
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kzollitsch
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March 22, 2007 - 1:19 pm
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That wouldn’t be too far off though. Wildcats operated over North Africa and Hellcats fought Fw 190s over the south of France.

Well I was attempting to think of some sort of outlandish situation that would have never occured, apparently I didn’t go far enough embarassed
I think I still got my point across though.

On a side note, I’d love to see someone create a nice North Atlantic Avenger painting. (no, that’s not an open inviation to contact me about commisioning an original, at least not yet)

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DocSilverhorn
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March 22, 2007 - 6:29 pm
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How did the Hellcats do against the 109s? The Brits flew the Hellcats right?

I love reading what you guys are writing about every little itty bitty detail. I guess its becoming my pastime.

Tom

Charles McHugh
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March 22, 2007 - 9:17 pm
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I do not think it an over dramatic thing to say that the danger of portraying inaccurate scenes is that you rewrite history. Many will see a painting and assume accuracy because of the perceived integrity of the artist.

An example of this is the shooting down of a Mig 15 by a Sea Fury in Korea. (Robert Taylor) The truth and nostalgia on that story have got very clouded, and the Royal Navy (FAA) museum themselves are unable to separate fact from fiction.

As has been discussed library photos and film footage are no guarantee for historical accuracy.

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March 22, 2007 - 10:25 pm
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:teach

Okay class, turn your textbooks, in this case “Luftwaffe Sturmgruppen” by John Weal (Osprey Aviation Elite Units 20), to pages 49 and 50. The photos on those pages show Unteroffizier Willi Maximowitz, of IV.(Sturm)/JG 3 taxiing in his FW-190A-8/R2 “Black 8” to a dispersal area after returning from a mission. This is the exact aircraft that Richard Taylor has portrayed in “Ramraiders”. The aircraft has no drop tank attached. Though the caption states that Maximowitz has concluded a Jabo sortie, in which case he would have been carrying a bomb on the centerline rack, what if the photos are showing his return from a bomber interception? Leap of faith? Maybe.

Now turn to page 40. In the upper right-hand corner of the page you will see a still taken from Oberfeldwebel Gerhard Marburg’s gun-camera from a mission he flew with IV.(Sturm)/JG 3 on 08 May 1944. Visible in the still is another FW-190 approaching a formation of B-24s. Although the quality of the still is grainy, I would interpret that the FW-190 has no drop tank attached.

I don’t know about you guys, but that would be proof enough for me to argue that Richard Taylor’s painting was historically accurate if he had omitted the drop tanks.

I know there is the argument that a historically accurate painting is not necessarily a good one, but the same statement could be made for an inaccurate painting. I don’t see anything unhealthy about examining a painting from left to right, top to bottom and pointing out things of this nature. The debate that results can serve to educate us all. Hell, Richard Taylor may be sitting at home laughing, and looking at a photo that he has of Maximowitz attacking a B-24 formation with that damn drop tank hanging on his airplane.

Class dismissed!

:crazy1

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March 22, 2007 - 11:33 pm
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I’m surprised no one has commented on the shape of the rudders in the Taylor print. All them appear to have curved trailing edges. I can forgive drop tanks, but not errors in shapes that significantly characterise an aircraft. It also looks too broad.

Steve

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March 23, 2007 - 2:19 am
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I just love it in these discussions how we dissect every little detail on a painting. Very informational, educational and entertaining!
πŸ™‚ 😎 :shooting

As long as I don’t see a Hellcat fighting off Fw190’s above North Africa, I’m pretty happy.

That wouldn’t be too far off though. Wildcats operated over North Africa and Hellcats fought Fw 190s over the south of France.

Skyraider3D, is this an actual event? Could you point us to a story on the web referencing this as I’m intrigued at such a confrontation between these aircraft. Like Tom asked, what was the outcome of this encounter? :think

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March 23, 2007 - 2:25 am
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I can’t say if I like the image or not, as that’s a rather poor reproduction of it. Are there any better images of this painting online? This one suggests this Fw 190 wears a rather peculiar black and bright green camouflage on the fuselage. I am sure it’s the digital reproduction, rather than the original painting causing this effect.

I’ve added this new print to the eHangar.com Aviation Art Directory. The uploaded image is quite close in colour to the brochure I received, and is the best, IMO, on this thread to date:

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